After posting my comment, I also read that the 'Made in USA didn't appear on the truss rod cover until '64, so that wouldn't be original to a '61.
It has the very slim bridge cover that screws into place that only covers the saddles. Wasn't that style of cover in use for a brief period? I know I've seen them in the past, but can't remember the exact time frame.
I'll have to look at the tuners again.
I know they are open back and say Grover on them. There's no sign of any other tuners being on it.
Good catch on the TRC. You’re right…that wouldn’t be original either. That bridge cover appears on pretty much every modern guitar, but has never been on a 450. They either had the ashtray cover or were the floating compensated bridges that didn’t have a cover at all. So you’ve got some replaced bits…do the pickups have little “dimples” (injection molding marks) in the corners of the toaster slots?
I need to preface this with the explanation that I wrote the big, long message below with the assumption I could attach a photo for reference, but I now realise that I can't, so let me explain what I am referencing below. My 1961 (?) Rick 450 has a pickguard that has the opening for the bridge shaped like a square, but with the bottom two corners cut at 45 degree angles. Like a mid-60s guitar would, but mine has the 6 saddle adjustable bridge-- not the floating, compensating type, so the route in the pickguard doesn't flare out at the sides of the bridge like a typical pickguard would.
As for the input jack location-- it is basically in line with the toggle switch-- like a '70's model would have, instead of a little more to the right, like a standard '60s guitar would have.
A picture would've been so much easier. Lol.
Greetings!
I've been admiring and learning from your webpage on Rickenbackers. It's an excellent source of information.
I have a couple of questions I was hoping you might help with.
Many years ago, I purchased what I was told was a 1961 Rick 450.
It has the straight neck heel, so I know it's pre-'64. The serial number on the bridge begins with AG XXX, so the bridge dates to July, 61. It has original Grover Sta-tite opened-back tuners, which should've ended in '59, so that's a little odd.
The truss rod cover is white, which I understand was introduced in 1963, so something is off there.
The body is contoured, but now come the oddities. The body is only 1 1/4" thick. It's my understanding that the common thickness is 1 5'8".
How odd is a 1 1/4" body?
I've collected a lot of vintage guitars, so I'm pretty good at evaluating vintage finishes under blacklight, and this guitar gloss evenly and consistent with a guitar from the early '60s.
I haven't looked inside in a couple decades, but I believe the original pots had been changed. There was no evidence of any odd routing or changes under the pickguard, which brings me to the last oddity- the pickguard. The placement of the input jack seems to be more like a '70s or '80s made. Also, I have never seen another example of the cutout for the bridge/tailpiece being this particular shape. Could it possibly just be something transitional, or is it possibly a repro pickguard?
I really don't know exactly what I have, but I believe the body and the bridge, toaster pickups, knobs are likely early '60's. Tuners, possibly late '50's, but the pickguard cutout for the bridge/tailpiece and the placement of the input jack, as well as the body being only 1 1/4" is throwing me for a loop.
On a separate matter- it came in a reissue case. I'd been looking for a period-correct case at a good price. Well, just recently a case popped up on Reverb claiming it was late '60's to early '60's and it was for the Rick 450. It wasn't the standard silver with blue crushed velvet interior. This was brown Rexine with crushed blue velvet interior.
I jumped on it but after paying for it, I found your website Rickenbacker101. It was then that I discovered that A) the brown rexine case with crushed blue velvet wouldn't have been available until 1964, and it was only made for the Electro ES16 and 17 or the Ryder 1000. Therefore, the case I purchased was neither late '50s-early '60's nor was it for a Rickenbacker 450.
When I explained to the seller that his description was incorrect and it wasn't appropriate for my '61 450, he was understanding and offered a partial refund, which I accepted. Which leads me to my final question- even though I know this case wasn't even made in 1961 yet, could it have been possible that a little later 450 could've been sold with this case? I'm planning on reselling it some day as a Electro or Ryder case, but if it could've possiblly came with a Rick 425 or 450, I'd like to note that as well- if it is true.
I'm sending a photo so you can see the pickguard and give an opinion, if you would be so kind.
Do I have a Rickenbacker Parts guitar, or is it some odd transitional version of the Rick 450.
I appreciate any and all help!
Thanks and take care,
Greetings!
I've been admiring and learning from your webpage on Rickenbackers. It's an excellent source of information.
I have a couple of questions I was hoping you might help with.
Many years ago, I purchased what I was told was a 1961 Rick 450.
It has the straight neck heel, so I know it's pre-'64. The serial number on the bridge begins with AG XXX, so the bridge dates to July, 61. It has original Grover Sta-tite opened-back tuners, which should've ended in '59, so that's a little odd.
The truss rod cover is white, which I understand was introduced in 1963, so something is off there.
The body is contoured, but now comes the oddities. The body is only 1 1/4" thick. It's my understanding that the common thickness is 1 5'8".
How odd is a 1 1/4" body?
I've collected a lot of vintage guitars, so I'm pretty good at evaluating vintage finishes under blacklight, and this guitar gloss evenly and consistent with a guitar from the early '60s.
I haven't looked inside in a couple decades, but I believe the original pots had been changed. There was no evidence of any odd routing or changes under the pickguard, which brings me to the last oddity- the pickguard. The placement of the input jack seems to be more like a '70s or '80s made. Also, I have never seen another example of the cutout for the bridge/tailpiece being this particular shape. Could it possibly just be something transitional, or is it possibly a repro pickguard?
I really don't know exactly what I have, but I believe the body and the bridge, toaster pickups, knobs are likely early '60's. Tuners, possibly late '50's, but the pickguard cutout for the bridge/tailpiece and the placement of the input jack, as well as the body being only 1 1/4" is throwing me for a loop.
On a separate matter- it came in a reissue case. I'd been looking for a period-correct case at a good price. Well, just recently a case popped up on Reverb claiming it was late '60's to early '60's and it was for the Rick 450. It wasn't the standard silver with blue crushed velvet interior. This was brown Rexine with crushed blue velvet interior.
I jumped on it but after paying for it, I found your website Rickenbacker101. It was then that I discovered that A) the brown rexine case with crushed blue velvet wouldn't have been available until 1964, and it was only made for the Electro ES16 and 17 or the Ryder 1000. Therefore, the case I purchased was neither late '50s-early '60's nor was it for a Rickenbacker 450.
When I explained to the seller that his description was incorrect and it wasn't appropriate for my '61 450, he was understanding and offered a partial refund, which I accepted. Which leads me to my final question- even though I know this case wasn't even made in 1961 yet, could it have been possible that a little later 450 could've been sold with this case? I'm planning on reselling it some day as a Electro or Ryder case, but if it could've possiblly came with a Rick 425 or 450, I'd like to note that as well- if it is true.
I'm sending a photo so you can see the pickguard and give an opinion, if you would be so kind.
Do I have a Rickenbacker Parts guitar, or is it some odd transitional version of the Rick 450.
I love playing guitar detective, so thank you for the opportunity. First, you caught a typo no one else has! In 1961 the body slimmed down FROM 1 5/8” TO 1 1/4”. Well spotted, and I’ve fixed the article.
Now, your guitar is absolutely a 1961. The headstock alone proves that. Now I am not willing to 100% say the pickguard is not original—we see odd things from this era all the time—it probably isn’t. Every other 61 I’ve see has the square cut because the 450 still had the ashtray bridge cover. As your july guitar would have. That is almost certainly not original. Sta-Tites would also be very unlikely—and that’s not what I see in your photo?
Regarding the case, I have seen 450s from the late 60s/early 70s with brown/blue velveteen cases, but never blue crushed velvet. Those cases WERE used on some 420s though!
I'll look for those tomorrow.
There's a black '61 450 on Reverb now with the same bridge cover. Someone else must've got the same idea!
I thought the two screw holes in the sides of the bridge was for that style bridge cover. What are they actually there for?
Oh, that’s why they’re there. Most guitars used them. But the 450 from this era had an ashtray bridge cover like this that rendered the small bridge cover pointless: https://www.rickresource.com/register/user_images/70440/2-fullsize.jpg
And the bridge on the Reverb guitar is not original.
Thank you so much for the rapid response!
I love learning about old guitars!
After posting my comment, I also read that the 'Made in USA didn't appear on the truss rod cover until '64, so that wouldn't be original to a '61.
It has the very slim bridge cover that screws into place that only covers the saddles. Wasn't that style of cover in use for a brief period? I know I've seen them in the past, but can't remember the exact time frame.
I'll have to look at the tuners again.
I know they are open back and say Grover on them. There's no sign of any other tuners being on it.
I've learned a lot from Rickenbacker 101.
I commend your efforts!
Good catch on the TRC. You’re right…that wouldn’t be original either. That bridge cover appears on pretty much every modern guitar, but has never been on a 450. They either had the ashtray cover or were the floating compensated bridges that didn’t have a cover at all. So you’ve got some replaced bits…do the pickups have little “dimples” (injection molding marks) in the corners of the toaster slots?
Sir!
I need to preface this with the explanation that I wrote the big, long message below with the assumption I could attach a photo for reference, but I now realise that I can't, so let me explain what I am referencing below. My 1961 (?) Rick 450 has a pickguard that has the opening for the bridge shaped like a square, but with the bottom two corners cut at 45 degree angles. Like a mid-60s guitar would, but mine has the 6 saddle adjustable bridge-- not the floating, compensating type, so the route in the pickguard doesn't flare out at the sides of the bridge like a typical pickguard would.
As for the input jack location-- it is basically in line with the toggle switch-- like a '70's model would have, instead of a little more to the right, like a standard '60s guitar would have.
A picture would've been so much easier. Lol.
Greetings!
I've been admiring and learning from your webpage on Rickenbackers. It's an excellent source of information.
I have a couple of questions I was hoping you might help with.
Many years ago, I purchased what I was told was a 1961 Rick 450.
It has the straight neck heel, so I know it's pre-'64. The serial number on the bridge begins with AG XXX, so the bridge dates to July, 61. It has original Grover Sta-tite opened-back tuners, which should've ended in '59, so that's a little odd.
The truss rod cover is white, which I understand was introduced in 1963, so something is off there.
The body is contoured, but now come the oddities. The body is only 1 1/4" thick. It's my understanding that the common thickness is 1 5'8".
How odd is a 1 1/4" body?
I've collected a lot of vintage guitars, so I'm pretty good at evaluating vintage finishes under blacklight, and this guitar gloss evenly and consistent with a guitar from the early '60s.
I haven't looked inside in a couple decades, but I believe the original pots had been changed. There was no evidence of any odd routing or changes under the pickguard, which brings me to the last oddity- the pickguard. The placement of the input jack seems to be more like a '70s or '80s made. Also, I have never seen another example of the cutout for the bridge/tailpiece being this particular shape. Could it possibly just be something transitional, or is it possibly a repro pickguard?
I really don't know exactly what I have, but I believe the body and the bridge, toaster pickups, knobs are likely early '60's. Tuners, possibly late '50's, but the pickguard cutout for the bridge/tailpiece and the placement of the input jack, as well as the body being only 1 1/4" is throwing me for a loop.
On a separate matter- it came in a reissue case. I'd been looking for a period-correct case at a good price. Well, just recently a case popped up on Reverb claiming it was late '60's to early '60's and it was for the Rick 450. It wasn't the standard silver with blue crushed velvet interior. This was brown Rexine with crushed blue velvet interior.
I jumped on it but after paying for it, I found your website Rickenbacker101. It was then that I discovered that A) the brown rexine case with crushed blue velvet wouldn't have been available until 1964, and it was only made for the Electro ES16 and 17 or the Ryder 1000. Therefore, the case I purchased was neither late '50s-early '60's nor was it for a Rickenbacker 450.
When I explained to the seller that his description was incorrect and it wasn't appropriate for my '61 450, he was understanding and offered a partial refund, which I accepted. Which leads me to my final question- even though I know this case wasn't even made in 1961 yet, could it have been possible that a little later 450 could've been sold with this case? I'm planning on reselling it some day as a Electro or Ryder case, but if it could've possiblly came with a Rick 425 or 450, I'd like to note that as well- if it is true.
I'm sending a photo so you can see the pickguard and give an opinion, if you would be so kind.
Do I have a Rickenbacker Parts guitar, or is it some odd transitional version of the Rick 450.
I appreciate any and all help!
Thanks and take care,
Greetings!
I've been admiring and learning from your webpage on Rickenbackers. It's an excellent source of information.
I have a couple of questions I was hoping you might help with.
Many years ago, I purchased what I was told was a 1961 Rick 450.
It has the straight neck heel, so I know it's pre-'64. The serial number on the bridge begins with AG XXX, so the bridge dates to July, 61. It has original Grover Sta-tite opened-back tuners, which should've ended in '59, so that's a little odd.
The truss rod cover is white, which I understand was introduced in 1963, so something is off there.
The body is contoured, but now comes the oddities. The body is only 1 1/4" thick. It's my understanding that the common thickness is 1 5'8".
How odd is a 1 1/4" body?
I've collected a lot of vintage guitars, so I'm pretty good at evaluating vintage finishes under blacklight, and this guitar gloss evenly and consistent with a guitar from the early '60s.
I haven't looked inside in a couple decades, but I believe the original pots had been changed. There was no evidence of any odd routing or changes under the pickguard, which brings me to the last oddity- the pickguard. The placement of the input jack seems to be more like a '70s or '80s made. Also, I have never seen another example of the cutout for the bridge/tailpiece being this particular shape. Could it possibly just be something transitional, or is it possibly a repro pickguard?
I really don't know exactly what I have, but I believe the body and the bridge, toaster pickups, knobs are likely early '60's. Tuners, possibly late '50's, but the pickguard cutout for the bridge/tailpiece and the placement of the input jack, as well as the body being only 1 1/4" is throwing me for a loop.
On a separate matter- it came in a reissue case. I'd been looking for a period-correct case at a good price. Well, just recently a case popped up on Reverb claiming it was late '60's to early '60's and it was for the Rick 450. It wasn't the standard silver with blue crushed velvet interior. This was brown Rexine with crushed blue velvet interior.
I jumped on it but after paying for it, I found your website Rickenbacker101. It was then that I discovered that A) the brown rexine case with crushed blue velvet wouldn't have been available until 1964, and it was only made for the Electro ES16 and 17 or the Ryder 1000. Therefore, the case I purchased was neither late '50s-early '60's nor was it for a Rickenbacker 450.
When I explained to the seller that his description was incorrect and it wasn't appropriate for my '61 450, he was understanding and offered a partial refund, which I accepted. Which leads me to my final question- even though I know this case wasn't even made in 1961 yet, could it have been possible that a little later 450 could've been sold with this case? I'm planning on reselling it some day as a Electro or Ryder case, but if it could've possiblly came with a Rick 425 or 450, I'd like to note that as well- if it is true.
I'm sending a photo so you can see the pickguard and give an opinion, if you would be so kind.
Do I have a Rickenbacker Parts guitar, or is it some odd transitional version of the Rick 450.
I appreciate any and all help!
Thanks and take care,
Chris Graham
Here is a link to a photo of my Rick 450
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mHyze4MrE8n3M4oV7
I love playing guitar detective, so thank you for the opportunity. First, you caught a typo no one else has! In 1961 the body slimmed down FROM 1 5/8” TO 1 1/4”. Well spotted, and I’ve fixed the article.
Now, your guitar is absolutely a 1961. The headstock alone proves that. Now I am not willing to 100% say the pickguard is not original—we see odd things from this era all the time—it probably isn’t. Every other 61 I’ve see has the square cut because the 450 still had the ashtray bridge cover. As your july guitar would have. That is almost certainly not original. Sta-Tites would also be very unlikely—and that’s not what I see in your photo?
Regarding the case, I have seen 450s from the late 60s/early 70s with brown/blue velveteen cases, but never blue crushed velvet. Those cases WERE used on some 420s though!
Hope this helps!